Smiti: Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Inspiring Leaders and Leadership podcast by AdvantageClub.ai. My name is Smiti, and I’m one of the founders of AdvantageClub.ai, which is a global employee engagement, rewards, recognition, and community platform. Today, we have another awesome person joining us. We have Mukul Harish Chopra, who is the CHRO of ConveGenius here with us today. Hi, Mukul.

Mukul: Thank you very much for having me on this show, Smiti. And I think I will live up to your expectations of this show.

Smiti: Absolutely. And we’re really excited to have you here as well. So, let’s start off, with just telling the audience a little bit about you, about your background with what you do, and also your journey into becoming Chief Human Resources Officer.

Mukul: Okay. My father is ex-forces. He was in the army. So, I changed five boards before I did my 10th. I still don’t know how to do logs, but I have traveled across the country. Then, 12th, brutally speaking, the choice was between medical and non-medical because that’s what boys were supposed to do. And I completed that. It takes eight years to do your medical and four years to do your engineering, so I chose engineering. Engineering, then, was about streams. So it was like, “Okay, become a mechanical engineer because every industry has a machine, and you’ll never be unemployed.” So that’s how I did my mechanical. And, four years into my mechanical, and after I graduated out, I still didn’t know how a spark plug works. Yet, unlike others, I wanted to still try my hand. So my first job was in Bombay, in the steel industry. I got a campus placement with Jindals, went to Bombay, worked there for two years, then came back and did my MBA. So I’d been like a traditional kite flying against the wind. So instead of doing the normal BE/MBA marketing, which was the flavor of the season at that point of time, I did it in human resources.

And, the biggest challenge I had during my pre-placement talk was that people could not fathom why, for the love of God, being an engineer, I did my HR. They were like “How can this guy do HR after doing his engineering?” And, through campus I got into telecom. So Essar Telecom was my first assignment. Three years with Essar, three years then with Bharti, Reliance, then, GE stint, Huawei, lost count, but just like my dad got transferred after every three years, I just have been moving around. So, this happens to be my latest stint, which is into EdTech now. And here I am. So that’s, in short, the journey.

I am happily married. My wife’s happy, and I have two sons, who think nothing of me, but, well, that’s how it is, but yes, life’s been kind, life’s been good. I’ve worked with a lot of people across nationalities, across sectors, across age groups now. I started being the youngest in my group to get elevated to a national head, to then reporting into a person who was taking the reporting of people who were junior to me in age, and then, reporting into people who were in their diapers when I did my engineering. So I guess where a child is the father of man, well, that’s all. I guess I’m living up to it.

Smiti: That’s amazing. And, what I’ve also noticed is that, especially as a child, if you’re in a background where you are changing a lot of boards, you also become a better person- person because you’re switching so many schools, you’re switching so many boards. And as a child, of course, that’s a very challenging thing. And, you also become very adaptable to different types of scenarios, because you’re doing multiple types of courses, and every board is very different from each. Plus, school switches also make you very adaptable to change in terms of the people around you. So I think that’s really helpful for the growth of the child, to be a successful person in the future too.

Mukul: You’re right, Smiti, it is. I put it as four A’s. And it’s one of my favorite distinctive quotes. See, in organizations today, firstly, ambiguity is here to stay. We don’t know what is next. It’s the agility with which you adapt to this ambiguity. It’s also adaptability. And ultimately, it’s your ability.

So I’ve lived through this as a child. We never knew what was in store. My dad had no forecast of which station he would go into. So, when I did my 10th, I did it from Maharashtra board. There, Marathi was the third language. I never thought I’d do my boards from there. We thought we would get posted out. But Marathi it was, and, I realized I never studied Marathi, so I took Sanskrit. Just because I had studied Sanskrit in fifth or sixth, it was assumed that I would do that. But I couldn’t find a teacher. Then ultimately, I found a teacher who could only speak from Sanskrit to Marathi, and then there would be a translator who would speak from Marathi to And my dad puffed almost two packs that day, the day I gave my Sanskrit paper. And when my result came out, it came by post, so my dad took it and he went out, saw it. He saw that I’d passed and he was really relieved and came and gave me a hug because he thought I would fail for sure. So when you go through this childhood, what people now feel astonished about and say, “My God, it’s this thing,” so I said, “Well, I’ve lived it almost daily.” I’ve had these fears. I think today, to be successful you should have the ability to do the incredulous and the ridiculous simultaneously.

Smiti: Absolutely. I think the four A’s, Ambiguity, agility, adaptability, and the ability I think it’s like a journey, from being in an ambiguous position, to becoming agile, to then adapting, and then eventually, of course, utilizing your ability to the best or utilizing your talents to the best of your ability.

Mukul: It’s a survival instinct. You sink, You swim or you sink. There is no other option.

Smiti: Absolutely true. And, I did my 10th from Maharashtra board as well, and I took Sanskrit as well, so I know where you’re coming from. But I cannot imagine my Sanskrit teacher translating to Marathi, and then a translator translating. And so much is lost in the translation as well during that time. It’s crazy.

Mukul: Well, I’ve seen so many summers now. I say life is a string of memories, and it is which one you choose to cherish.

Smiti: True. Absolutely

Mukul: It’s all about your outlook towards life, so you can choose to have happy memories. It’s not that my childhood was rosy, We’ve had our own share of challenges. We were not born with a silver spoon. It was a coated one. But, you make the most out of them.

Smiti: Agree.

Mukul: And, and if life throws a lemon at you, you learn to relish the lemon.

Smiti: Yep. What else are you going to do?.Otherwise-

Mukul: I don’t know.

Smiti: And, I also was wondering, why did you decide to pick up HR instead of the standard modus operandi of marketing inMBA?

Mukul: Okay. So, when I did my engineering, I wanted to be economically independent. So after 12, when I got into engineering college, I started taking tuitions. Now, the easiest for me was to take kids in 12th class, because I’d done my engineering, I’d cracked it. All I had to do was share my notes, talk to them and get it. But I deliberately taught kids who were seven to eight years old. The reason is their imagination runs wild. And they can be sitting, one moment they’ll be here, then there. Now, the amount you have to come down to relate to them and be accepted by them, that is your power of communication. I was able to do that.

And secondly, being from the forces background, I mean, dad being in the forces, we were taught to be humble. The sahibs and all, I mean, my father was very strict. He would say, he is orderly, but he’s for me. He’s not your orderly. So we would polish our own shoes. We’ll call him Bhaiya, we have to give him respect, all those things. So that came very naturally. So, I realize I was as comfortable talking to the CEO or the GMHR or the GM of their work as I was with the worker or helper. So that relatability instinct was there. And, that made me decide that I’m a natural at this. Then one option is sales, but the other is HR roles. And, that’s what took me to HR.

Smiti: True. And I’ve seen that the best people in human resources are the best teachers as well. So I think that that entire stint which you did also probably made you feel more comfortable about this role as your career path.

Mukul: Yes. In a manner of speaking, yes.

Smiti: Amazing. And you also mentioned that you were the youngest in your group to get to a leadership position. I would love to understand that journey that you must have had to really, really work hard for. Plus, it would’ve been really challenging. So,when you’re a person who gets to a certain level in life earlier than what other people would do how do you navigate that? It must be really challenging.

Mukul: So, even now, India is a very age-conscious society.

Smiti: Yes, absolutely.

Mukul: So, at that point of time, when I got there, I realized that I had to work doubly hard to prove to those people that I’m not a fluke. Now, in HR, what happens is normally that your acceptability is on the basis of how well you are able to contribute to the business. And HR was typically that at that time — crafting a candidate’s letter, taking care of increment, etc. So I took pains to understand the business, so that I could add value to the business. And I simplified HR. I would not hide behind lingo and jingles because business leaders don’t have time for that. So if you talk about the concept of business HR, it comes in later. I won’t say I’m the inventor of it, but I adapted it, adopted it much earlier in my life. So, when I would sit in a meeting or something and I would open my mouth, they would think that it isn’t making sense. I had my colleagues who were a decade elder to me in sales. I had to work really hard to earn their trust and to be considered as equals.

Smiti: Right. And, just to add to that, I think that’s also a challenge which I’ve seen a lot of people navigate through, that is if you get to a level in life earlier, you’re obviously gonna be leading a lot of people who are age-wise older than you. So what would be, I know this is very off-topic, but I would love to hear from you because you’ve been there in the journey, how have you ensured that they truly take you as a leader and not just, like you said, think of it that you got it as a fluke?

Mukul: Okay. So, twice or thrice in my career. And, I can say that the first time it happened was that some of my friends who started together as management trainees or something, and, a decade later, they started reporting to me in different companies. The first thing which I did was see, look, as a leader, please understand, it’s a very simple thing. It’s all about people, and 90% of your time will be on people management. So, respect their competencies, give them the environment where they can deliver. And all you have to do is work on their strengths. See, everybody has weaknesses. Now, I can either keep on pinpointing on your weaknesses, or I can work on your strengths. My best teams did not have the best guys. They had the guys who could deliver. So for me, delivery is important.

So in this case, what used to happen was that typically whenever a meeting would happen, I would never go and sit on the main chair. I would always sit aside. I would never dominate. I would take pains to explain to them why I’m doing this step. And I would encourage them to disagree, because it’s not necessary that every time I take a decision, it’s the right decision. They’re also here for a certain reason, and you need to respect their competencies. So encourage them to give their inputs, then if you see from the business perspective, this will work, not work, then modify it and take pains to explain why you have overruled.

Smiti: True. Absolutely true.

Mukul: So, don’t make them feel that you’re a boss. You just tell them that, “Okay, fine. I just happen to approve of your leaves. That’s about it. That too also you need to tell me that I’m going, but other than that, you’re an equal. It’s like King Arthur and his knights. So it’s a round table. And trust me, when people feel that they’re being heard, you will have a work culture or a, or a team which will deliver beyond your expectation, even what you would have thought. It’s just that, it’s how you manage them. That’s the difference between a manager and a leader.

Smiti: Absolutely. The difference between a manager and a leader is that a manager will manage, but the leader will bring everyone together, have them deliver to the best of their capabilities, and also himself or herself get involved in that entire process instead of just being the man in the high chair. And love that.

And, also since we’re talking about managing people, what has also happened post-COVID is people’s needs have completely changed. You mentioned that when you started off your career, HR’s job was primarily around paperwork or setting up policies, managing them. But it was never around engaging employees. It was never around retention because there was barely any competition in the market. There was barely any attrition happening. And even from a work perspective, if you look from an MNCs perspective, India was not looked at as a place where you’re innovating. India was looked at as a back office kind of a setup where you’re just having support.

So, all of that has changed over time, and hence employee needs have also changed and the way you engage and retain employees has also completely changed. So, I’m gonna add and ask two questions here. One is, what do you think HR leaders should do to address the changing needs of their employees now? And secondly, there’s a lot of ambiguity today in the market. How would you recommend that leaders navigate that ambiguity to reduce insecurity, to engage employees, and at the same time not dig deep holes in their pockets? So, that’s what I would like to ask you next.

Mukul: See, there’s no fixed answer to it. Otherwise, everybody would have figured it out. There was a difference between a white-collared employee and a blue-collared employee, today, that difference also is not there. Everyone has his own mind. I read a quote somewhere broadly that goes like this, “A man is a jigsaw of needs, and there’s always a missing piece.” You become that missing piece, and they’ll remain with you throughout their life.” So, if you’re asking me on an organizational wide, how will you implement it? No. It’s very selective. It’s a people-to-people approach. And if you think it’s only the job of an HR guy, perhaps not. It’s the job of every person who has people reporting to him or her.

Look, today, there is something even I have gone through and I’m trying to change. It’s like I’ll text you, we’ll text each other for half an hour, but we’ll not speak. I say, “Talk, don’t text.” That’s another way of connecting. And today, also what’s happening is, the role of a HR manager I say is like, he’s become half a shrink because people have a lot of concerns, genuine, perceived. I mean, so the perceived ones you can address. The genuine ones you can only mitigate. You cannot eliminate it. So why bother and worry about the future? How will it look like? Did anybody know what 2020 looked like in 2019? Nobody knew till the time COVID hit us. Till the time COVID hit us, in the midst of COVID everybody was saying from now on we will now only work from home. There was a mandate out. And suddenly you realize you never had the ecosystem.

See, man essentially is a social creature. The need to communicate is very important. And if you put barriers to communication, we say we use technology, stuff like that. No. Technology has to be an enabler, not a barrier. Smiti, tomorrow you will remember me for the person I am, not for the technology I used. So that’s very true for an HR guy. The idea is you have to be available if people have to speak their heart out. You cannot say, “Okay, write me a mail.” There are a lot of things which can be solved by talking. And till today, that’s the best.

Smiti: Absolutely.

Mukul: So yeah, broadly speaking, I think, what’s happening is we are over-relying on technology, and we are hiding behind technology. Technology should free us to talk, to be more amongst people. I guess that’s about it. It’s as simple as that.

Smiti: That’s true. And the key takeaway from this is technology needs to be an enabler. Technology does not need to become an excuse for not actually dealing with the people’s problems or how companies have overall related to their employees. And that’s, I think, an amazing closing note as well.

With that, we’re at the end of the podcast. Thank you so much, Mukul, for your time. It was such a pleasure talking to you today. And I know we did everything from school life to philosophy to career to HR to everything. And I love how filling this entire session was. I’m sure our viewers will thoroughly enjoy watching it.

Mukul: Thank you so much, Smiti, for having me on your show. Take care.